Miura, the original supercar | Page 807 | LamborghiniChat
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Miura, the original supercar

Discussion in 'Lamborghini Supercars' started by joe sackey, Dec 5, 2006.


  1. My confirmed desire to buy it?? You just love to twist the facts to suit your narrative. As stated, I did ask Roy to let me know if it were to become available because I might be interested. The truth of the matter is that I completely lost interest when I learned that the bodywork was a bit flawed in that the rear spoiler isn't shaped correctly. I didn't want to have to mention that. So no, Joe. No sour grapes from me at all on 4115, and you are again, incorrect.
     
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  3. I have an email plus a separate text on file confirming your interest in the car so no need to change your story and pretend that you weren't interested. Suddenly the car that you just stated a few posts ago was an "excellent Miura" is flawed? Hilarious! If that isn't a clear display of blatant sour grapes I don't know what is.

    The more you post the more you show why you complained in the first place, so in summary, all the fuss you've created is because I didn't say: '4115 was restored by Howard De Haven, M & L Auto, Huber Restoration, Blake Woolf and Jeff Stephan'?

    Guess what Clint, I'll say what feels right as I see it, even though I admit some obvious simplification we're all entitled to our way of characterizing things which is why I said "different opinions are fine", but you appear so blinded with disappointment that you're only looking at things from your perspective.

    Let's review.

    First you didn't get the car, an "excellent Miura" according to you, the one thing we agree with.

    Second the guy who sold it won't be bullied by you into stating the restorer just the way you feel it should be, and he's called it sour grapes like it is, so you've resorted to calling him names. Very mature, what would your clients think?

    Third, now you haven't managed to impose your will here, the car is the car's rear spoiler is somehow flawed. Seriously, and is any Miura including 3102's bodywork perfect? Don't get me started, speaking of which, I started this Miura thread @ 17 years ago and you showed up here just 3 years ago and suddenly how you see things is the only way to state them? Hilarious.

    Miura rising.

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  4. We have seen most Miuras that are shown publicly in the USA at some point over the past 25 years, and I think it would be fair to say that IMO 4115 has one of the best body panel fitment of any Miura I have encountered, sold or owned, and that includes all of our own Miuras.

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  5. IMO

    The fact that an owner of a Miura and/or any other Lamborghini model is more knowledgeable than one who only pays contractors' invoices, does not automatically make him the one who restored it.

    I financed several restorations of my Lamborghinis, and the one where I was most involved was my Islero 24H Le Mans racer (dismantling, sanding and so on).

    Many Miura owners in this threat have extensive knowledge that allows them to lead a restoration. Do they claim the paternity of a restoration?

    I do not think so !

    For my part, "this ego" goes against the recognition of the know-how of real professionals, including Jeff Stephan and I will mention other tenors such as Cariati, Top Motors, TS Automobiles, Stefan of Toro Ricambi and Iain Tyrrell.

    I'm more proud to say that Iain Tyrrell worked on my Jarama GTS than to argue I would like people to remember that I work on it... we are already privilege owners
     
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  6. Joe,

    I have no axe to grind over 4115 other than to see the late Blake Woolf get proper credit for his passion. I am a man of principle, and I challenge you to find anyone who can prove otherwise. Can you say the same? Maturity... that's a great topic. I prescribe to the notion that actions speak louder than words. Also, I haven't called you any names; I've just described your behavior.


    My emotional investment in 4115 was lukewarm and short-lived, and my financial investment was zero. Doesn't really sound like a recipe for sour grapes, does it? My feeling is that any car, especially a Miura, can be excellent and still flawed. As to my own #3102, I love it dearly but I am well aware of it's flaws. Have I ever claimed otherwise?

    Oh, you have a text messages and emails to share publicly? Please do! Do they expose something other than what I have stated, which is that at one point, I was curious as to the availability of 4115? Here, let me save you the trouble.

    Here is your text to me, showing what Roy shared with you:

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Joe Sackey of… by William Brunner, on Flickr

    Here is another interesting one; an email that Roy sent me (he must not mind, since he has been sharing details with you):

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    Note that he discussed the restoration, with zero reference to Jeff other than mentioning "someone in California" who rebuilt the engine.

    Correct, I've only been on this forum for a few years. Not new to cars, not new to honesty, and quite able to admit when I'm incorrect. So you started this thread 17 years ago and because of that, you think you're infallible. I'd guess I'm at least 17 years younger than you. Sorry it took me a while to get here. I can't wait until another 14 or so years pass, so that my statements might carry more weight.

    As to 4115, are you going to say on record here that you are unaware of any conversations about the correctness of the spoiler? Because you seem to be trying to discredit me again. Careful...
     
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  8. I don't disagree with anything you've said here.

    I DO find it disingenuous when people exaggerate the role that such a professional played, in an attempt to elevate the pedigree of the car. I don't find that tactic to be very professional, even if it is common among salespeople.

    Certainly, I think it is possible here that Joe simply gave a less-than-accurate answer to Astonish 78 for the sake of brevity, but he seems hell-bent on defending his answer to the bitter end.
     
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  9. Actually, I do differ from you here a bit. While I consider people like Jeff Stephan and Iain Tyrrell true craftsman and heroes in the Miura realm and I would be proud to tie them to a car’s provenance, I take great satisfaction in telling people who ask me “who did this?” or “who did that?” that I actually did it myself. I agree that we are privileged just to own these cars, but (at least in my part of the world) there is a growing sentiment/resentment factor of “BUILT, not bought”, as though people like us with these valuable cars aren’t “real” car people, and just had to write that check. I like people to know that I’m not just a car “collector”, and I believe that Blake felt the same. Maybe it comes from growing up with absolutely nothing; I want people to know I’m not just another rich a**hole.
     
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  10. #20158 joe sackey, Sep 19, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2022
    Nobody has discredited Blake Woolf by omitting to mention him as the 'restorer' of the car, so you can continue your redundant one-man crusade all you like.

    Read your own posts, when you don't seem to be getting anywhere, name-calling is your next step, its here for all to see, just because you have stated something does not make me that in the least, you're wasting your time on this, I've received personal attacks before and as history proves, they go nowhere, the fact is the name-calling only speaks to your poor behavior.

    Your emotional investment in 4115 is clearly still high as your time wasted on this thread proves, I agree that the fact that you have zero investment in 4115 should mean there's no need for sour grapes, which is why your display of same is interesting.

    I never said I would post text messages and emails to share publicly , even though it's clearly your style to share private messages publicly without permission, it isn't mine, but, I have the additional ones I do as a matter of record and so I can share them as needed privately. There are other emails that confirm your interest in 4115 but I'm not posting any of them, it would be easy for me to confirm thier existence to anyone who has a relevant need to know. Meanwhile the text you've posted not only confirms the seller was happy, but it does also confirm you were interested ;)

    By his own admission Roy Sinor does not know the full story of the car's restoration, as he said to me, he knows little of Miuras nor is he that interested in them being a Corvette specialist, we both know this so posting his communication with you is a waste of time.

    Stop grasping at straws in an attempt to change the narrative, I never said I was unaware of any conversations about the correctness of the spoiler, what I said was "suddenly the car that you just stated a few posts ago was an 'excellent Miura' is flawed? Hilarious!", that's what I said. I also said you think "3102's bodywork perfect?" because now that things haven't gone your way you are casting stones at another person's Miura, one you failed to acquire, when your own isn't perfect, which still further underscores your sour grapes. I realize you have tunnel vision and are continuing to preach the Gospel according to Clint, but as I said, I have been involved in restorations where my name is not mentioned subsequently and I didn't get twisted over it, why would Blake?

    Again, the parties who do have a relevant interest in the car (seller - facilitator - buyer) are happy, so see if you can possibly find it in your heart to be happy the car has gone to a home where it will be loved, taken care of and used.

    Meanwhile I will indeed credit Blake for his meticulousness in general and keeping every scrap of paper documenting this car's true history, over a hundred of pages if I recall correctly, safe in a box in the trunk.

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  11. Complete nonsense.

    We have dealt with this before but as usual you're too busy asserting your point of view to notice.

    See post #20128.

    It's here if you can't find it:

    https://lamborghinichat.com/forum/posts/146425204/

    Embedded for posterity:

    "This Miura S was sold on the basis that it was a nice restored Miura S, not on the basis that Stephan, or anyone else of repute, restored it. At the point of sale, the current owner did not have any prior knowledge of who Jeff Stephan was, nor was his name used to add a penny more in value to the sales price, all the buyer cared about was that it's a nicely restored Miura S which he's been been wanting for 12 years in the right color, so the mention that Jeff restored the car here long after the car has already sold was not stated to add any value whatsoever, it was simply a statement of fact."

    The notion that Stephan's name was used for anything other than brevity is yet another false assertion, the new owner of the car had never heard of him and certainly didn't pay up because of his or anyone's name.

    LOL that is just precious!
     
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  13. #20160 DakotaGT, Sep 19, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2022
    Joe,

    As I have told you, please feel free to share any correspondence concerning me; there is nothing new or negative to expose concerning me, and to imply otherwise to the forum would just be plain dishonest. We seem to have a fundamental difference of opinion on the definition of the word “restoration”.

    That aside, I feel that I've made my points (many of which you've ignored anyway), and I have no doubt that you feel the same. I agree that too much time has been wasted, I'm growing weary of beating my head against the wall, and I have a long week of work ahead of me. As stated already, I have nothing but warm wishes towards the new owner, and I welcome him to the Miura community.

    I will part with something less controversial (let's hope); a pleasant memory of mine from this weekend of me sharing a beer with one of my sons and my golden retriever Josie, and #3102 in the background.

    ps- "dog brew" is just a pork broth ;)


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  14. Dear Clint,

    You started all this back-and-forth by unnecessarily creating a fuss about my obviously abbreviated response to who restored 4115, perhaps you were not expecting the push-back you've received and now you feel too much time has been wasted, but please bear in mind that you are not Blake’s appointed defender and you do not have any real connection to him or his former Miura 4115. Carrie his longtime wife on the other hand does have a connection to him and the car, and she is on record as saying she’s happy with the deal, and, I feel sure she's delighted that the car ended up in an appreciative and capable home.

    To put your complaint in perspective, what about Howard De Haven who in fact did far more as far as the restoration goes than Blake, should he not be the one credited instead of Blake? He started the restoration, disassembled the car, retained H&L and Huber Restorations and essentially gave Blake the same stage of Miura that Bertone SpA would supply Lamborghini SpA as confirmed by the 2004 photos. Shall we complain that Howard’s been slighted too because the restoration isn't accredited to him? When asked about 3102, do you give a full accounting of all the entities that Paul Hoey retained to help restore the car or is it a disservice to the others to simply say Paul restored the car? See how ridiculous this all is? The whole thing is quite silly because at the end of the day we are all entitled to our opinions, you have yours which I've acknowledged, but I have mine.

    Yet again, unlike you, my style is not to publicly post communications without permission, not only is that highly inappropriate, it's underhanded at best and unethical at worst as said communications have an expectation of privacy, meanwhile in my case, I regard that material as proprietary and modesty forbids disclosure. You must be feeling a bit insecure to be concerned about this because rest assured nowhere have I indicated or suggested that I possess anything negative about you, what I possess simply confirms that you had an interest in buying 4115 which IMO establishes the motive for your dissatisfaction, nothing more or less so please don't try to change the narrative.

    You may go ahead and think we have a fundamental difference of opinion on the definition of the word “restoration”, but for the record, over the past 25 years, I have personally been involved in the full restoration of 2 Miuras for myself, and at least 10 more for clients, this not counting 3 Countach restorations for ourself and the overseeing of a dozen more for clients, so I think my definition of the word restoration is well-understood. Many people are involved in the restoration of these cars and usually the guy who finished the job and puts the car together for delivery gets the credit, the others notwithstanding.

    I am glad you have nothing but warm wishes towards the new owner and welcome him to the Miura community, he deserves nothing less and for the record he's not the least bit fazed about the characterization of the restoration, he has a boxful of documents that tell the full story.

    I will reciprocate and part with something less controversial that involves our children, we started them early with Miuras and they've seen more than there fair share. Here's my daughter Izzy in our Miura SV 4884 from 17 years ago, the young lady is all grown up these days, also, here's another of our son Vince in the ex-Shah of Persia Miura SV 4870 from @ 21 years ago, he's 25 now and that young man in the very gentleman who flew to Oklahoma last month to inspect and green-light the purchase of the now much-controversial 4115.

    Where's the thumbs-up button here?

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  15. *sigh*

    Cute kids, Joe.

    Clint
     
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  18. There are very few truly original Miuras, here's one that came to visit us https://www.instagram.com/p/Ciwhmsau11L/
     
  19. 1972 Lamborghini Miura SV #4930 arrives to Miami, just in time to be shipped North for the spectacular "The Bridge" automotive event.

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    Ciro Izzo, Spyder-Man, MD68 and 3 others like this.
  20. Grass looks in great condition and well looked after. The Miura is not bad either!
     

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