Miura, the original supercar | Page 787 | LamborghiniChat

Miura, the original supercar

Discussion in 'Lamborghini Supercars' started by joe sackey, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. Joe,
    Always nice to learn something new.
    As I have not seen any notes in the building sheets in Lamborghini PoloStoricos archive about the glossy paint, how do we know which cars that shall be painted glossy around the head lamps?
    Are there any P400 and S painted glossy around the headlamps?
    On those cars that are painted glossy around the head lamps are also the other parts, grilles, louvres, bumpers etc. painted glossy or are these parts matt black?
    I thought that one reason for painting the b-post air intake black (matt or glossy, who knows) was the problem with getting a good looking surface on the backside of the outer sheetmetal. The P400, or at least most of them were not painted black, but were there S with body colored intakes or just SV:s?
    About the mounting of the Ansa Bob exhaust tips, do the judges at a concour say anything about them being riveted from the outside? May we use alu-rivets instead of copper? Or maybe the judges don't care or know?

    Another quiz!
    How many Vitalonis can you find on this pic?
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    Joe, I'm not here to find faults on others cars. I'm just interested in that the Lamborghini's and in this case the Miura's history will be as correct as possible. We who saw the cars when they were new are getting older and in the future (hopefully long away) we will not be there. So to honour the people who once designed and constructed the exotics we have to be as honest as possible.
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  3. I have not seen any reason to count them, but for sure it's more than one and less than hundred and fifty.

    I do still remember the first one. It was in Alassio at the Italian Riviera, Summer 1973, at midnight. The silver SV was parked some fifty meters from the entrance of a discoteque on main street of Alassio. Out came an guy in company with that night's Beauty. When approaching the second Beauty, the SV, four assistances jumped out off a Fiat 124 to stop the traffic. The long-legged had to open the passenger door herself while the shorty took place behind the wheel, started the engine, stamped the pedal and passed the disco-entrance changing to second gear at 8000 rpm:s. I will never forget the effect the scene and sound made on me. The following days I was able to examine the Miura in daylight. As far as I remember the black parts were matt. But I maybe wrong.

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  4. I did my first paintjob on an Italian Classic 52 years ago. I have by myself on my own cars made around fifty back to bare metal repaints. I owned and operated for several years a paintshop where more classic Ferraris and Lamborghinis were repainted than anywhere else in the region. I am familiar with Nitro Cellulose, Synthetic, bake oven synthetic, Acryl, Termo acryl, 2-pack, thinner-base, water-base etc.
    I don't claim to be an expert, but I do have some experience.

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  5. #19654 miurasv, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
    Quite a few people with the knowledge to answer found interest in your quiz and post, but I guess they didn't want to talk about the elephant in the room and post that the amiable Mr Tyrrell has restored 4707's bonnet incorrectly for the owner's wish to return 4707 to a Miura with a correct P400S bonnet, as it left the factory. It's still as SV from the wheel wells and above moving back. Personally I cannot see the factory converting a P400S bonnet to look like a P400SV either as stated in the video, and if they did, or if someone else actually did rather than making a whole SV bonnet, they changed the whole aluminium skin to SV spec, not just the nose/grille part and headlamp surrounds, as your 2 illustrated posts clearly demonstrate.
  6. #19655 Olivier NAMECHE, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2021
    Dear Lel, dear Steven,

    It is clear that many people with experience have had the intelligence not to answer you.
    Courteously, others who have had the skill have done so nicely over the last few posts.

    While Lel's selection of photos is interesting, some think it would have been more relevant to bring to our attention a larger sample, rather than skewing the conclusion towards a free review of the quality of the work performed.

    Among your selection, some of the wheel arch lips are more prominent, others smaller… how many Miura among this targeted selection have already been restored and therefore altered from the original Bertone design?

    You seem so perfectly documented about # 4707's fate, that you make beautiful claims of it seeking to discredit the contractor's end result, but what do you know his backstage?

    So, your approach is not foolish, it is focused.

    We are all here to learn, every day.

    Yes that's a fact, the lip of the wheel arch is smaller than that of the Miura S #4245 or slightly larger than the Miura SV #4974 both also residing at Iain's workshop.

    Would you have the naivety to think, although you want to make us believe, that this detail would have escaped Iain?

    Do you think the work is the result of improvisation or rather of choice ?

    Let's see… which elephant in the room are we talking about ?

    Ask yourself other more relevant questions, Gentlemen, and don't count on me to enlighten you ... there are some aspects which only concern the owners, which Lel is able to understand, but obviously not Steven with his last post.

    Since completion, #4707 has been inspected by another Top marque specialist who granted it it of close to perfection despite the front lips...

    In 30 years, I have already met more than 200x Miura, a score that will continue to grow after this Coviddrama.

    I am not the only one to have seen SV noses welded onto the hoods of P400 or S ... Salvioli, Bobileff, Razzionale, StefanCuntz, Cremonini, Ciclet and others have also noticed.

    Here is an illustration with some photos among others (when you click on them they are in groups: 1,2,3,4), more constructive.

    I think the post is interesting to expand on, on how the factory implemented Miura's replacement parts of front Miura hood, which repair protocol at a specific time ?

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  8. #19657 miurasv, Apr 9, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2021

    The fact is that the Miura P400/S have the more pronounced lips on the bonnet surrounding the front wheels that match the more pronounced lips that are on the rear hood/clam surrounding the rear wheels on these earlier cars, whereas the P400SV cars have the less pronounced lips on the bonnet surrounding the front wheels to match the less pronounced lips surrounding the rear wheels on the P400SV rear hood/clam.

    The P400/S examples you show in your post with the less pronounced lips have been modified from standard and are not correct as details of their bonnets do not match those of a P400/S as they left the factory when built.

    The white car with registration number CE 721 GX is P400 #3574. It has some SV lookalike features such as an SV front grille and the aperture for the grille is SV shaped with rounded edges at either side, and do not come to a point at the extreme left and right edges as a correct P400/S bonnet grille aperture does. The bonnet could actually be an SV bonnet modified with eye lashes.

    The orange car with registration SGF 725GP is P400S #4596. The aperture for the grille at the front is also rounded at the left and right sides like an SV bonnet, although it does have a P400/S grille. See the 3rd (and 6th?) picture.

    The blue car with registration number L74872 Roma is P400S #4797 and has the correct more pronounced lips.

    The red car has the correct more pronounced lips and the last car in this particular post, the yellow one with registration FR AY 604 is P400S #4245, which has the correct more pronounced lips.

    4707's bonnet across its width at the top is still wider as per SV from edge to edge and drops down at a wider angle and closer to vertically from the top edges, therefore is the wrong shape for a P400S. So it's not just the lip of the wheel arches that are the problem.
  9. Olivier,

    I’m not in this discussion to discredit Iain. He’s a nice guy and a good singer, who is making interesting videos and in the business transaction, I had with him, he played his role as an honest and respectable gentleman.

    I don’t understand what you will say with your text and photos, other than that I’m not intelligent enough to keep quiet.

    But it is as easy as this:

    If the measure between the edges of the bonnet on #4707 is approximately 1610 mm it is a SV-bonnet with a S-front. But if it is approximately 1580 mm it is a correct S-bonnet and I have got to get new glasses.


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  10. Lel, Steven,

    You didn't get my point, nor with my pics, probably I was too diplomat or not enough straight.

    Again, your 1st comment about the size of the lip was clearly understood and agreed, but the illustration you made was incorrect.

    I have presented you 6x first pics which have the smaller lips because these Miura were also fitted in their life with the SV front mask factory replacement.... and later converted back to eyes lashes front mask.... I speak of front mask ant not of a full aluminium skin... it illustrates clearly that the lip arch is less prominent than the standard one and more prominent than the SV ones.

    Than I also illustrate (like you did) the size of a standard lip arch with few other pics (Mexico blue, red, yellow which are all 3 correct in size), we all have understood your point, don't worry.

    Next was an original hood SV (1rst time ever stripped off) and to finish with #4707 pics to show you that the lips in question are not the same to SV, but similar to the 6x first pics.

    On your selection pics, all your standard lips don't t even have same sizes...

    The good question that you should have asked is not the missing of standard lip on #4707 or the width size of hood... to try to point a potential contractor mistake... which was even emphasized by Steven.

    But it is why these cars all come to be similar with the front end mask replacement ?

    That is much more interesting to understand, because my 6x first pics (and I have more), are sample enough to really open the discussion.

    Thus, it is not a common mistake for all these shops who have converted back P400 or S back to eyes lashes... from older conversion into SV front mask

    Next, ask yourself with the right question about why the factory was offering such option ?

    Further, about the choice on how to get it ? how to make it ? what does it cost ? how long does it take ? and so on...

    Isn't the owner's decision leading these answers ?

    In conclusion, thank you to not blame the contractor like if he is an idiot (he had all materials under the hands in his shop with example of standard of original S and SV front bonnet), because for several posts this is looking more like the chase of witch, and it was even more offensing from Steven's last post.
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  12. 3099 went to the USA, how early I’m not sure but I believe it’s been here since the 70s.
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  13. You are wrong, the black parts on an original SV are not matte, they are somewhere between satin and gloss.
  14. #19662 miurasv, Apr 10, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
    So you and Iain are saying that only the front part of Miura 4707's P400S bonnet was replaced by the Factory to convert it to SV, and you refer to it as the front end mask, so effectively the part the Factory used to replace the P400S front, was the part Iain and his team removed as pictured below:

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    No evidence of the previous join of the SV front end mask has been shown, and the problem with this is that if that was done, the rest of the bonnet would have been left as a P400S, BUT the whole bonnet was as P400SV, or at least the whole of the aluminium outer skin was as P400SV, as shown in the pic of 4707 here before it was sprayed gold, with the wider width across the top of the bonnet, probably measuring 1610 mm as per Lel, and the less prominent lips:
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    The examples that you have shown in your post to illustrate your theory, P400 3574 and P400S 4596 look to me like they may have full SV bonnets, or full SV aluminium outer bonnet skins, but built with the eye lashes rather than the solid SV headlamp surrounds. You say the front end masks have been later converted again with the eye lashes, but the problem with that is that the grille apertures were left as SV with the rounded edges. Wouldn't they have wanted to change the grille apertures to P400/S as well if that was the case to complete the front end mask correctly which would have necessitated them to have reverted to the whole of the original type front end mask, not just changing to the eye lashes? I am just speculating and I don't know all this for sure of course, but may I ask how Iain knows for sure, that the front end mask as you refer to it, was replaced by the Factory in the 1970s as he states in his video here?

    Olivier, I assure you that this is not a witch hunt and only an exercise to find the truth and to uphold and maintain the high level of accurate information that is generally posted in this thread. According to Iain in the video, the owner has requested that the bonnet be reverted back and restored to as new specification, but that is not the case, with the shape of the bonnet from the wheel wells back still as SV.

    I must say that the fact that you have not shown pictures of the Bertone body numbers only adds fuel to the fire that the whole bonnet, or the whole of the outer aluminium skin was replaced. The 666 body numbers would still be there if your story about the bonnet is true. You can easily prove me wrong here of course, and I will be happy for you to do so, by just posting pictures of the body numbers on the bonnet.

    Also, I cannot see why anyone would want to just change the nose (front end mask) part of a P400S to P400SV, as most people prefer the eye lashes anyway, and why did they stop there with only changing the front end details? The SV has better aspects in other areas of the body than those in the nose. I think the whole bonnet was changed to SV, as that was what was available from the Factory/Bertone to replace a damaged bonnet, and not because the then owner wanted a P400SV nose to replace the P400S nose.
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  15. Thank you Joe; I appreciate the response. Yes, all three of these eventually made their way into the USA, but only my #3102 have I been able to reasonably establish did, in fact, get delivered to London first, before making it to the USA in 1974. What I am in need of is verification of the FIRST actual delivery location (not just "initial intended destination of record") of 3096 and 3099, and I was hoping that the owners of these cars might have some more information on the history of their cars.
    joe sackey likes this.
  16. Joe,

    You are right.

    Even if the black paint on Miuras is on the matt side on the gloss meter scale, I would say 30 - 35 where 0 is fully matt and 100 is on the other side of the scale, both almost impossible to obtain, it is more correct to pronounce the Miura accent color “satin”.

    Does this help you to better understand my question


  17. IMO, the civilized way to tell you is : We all agree you are right on this...

    ...and you continue to demonstrate "your young experience" in the specific field of bodywork.... you bet to be educated by Lel for this field as he run succesfully a bodyshop for years.

    I have tried to teach you something and lead you to answer to few simple questions for which you are not answering but you are calling it "theory".... what can I do more ? nothing, end of the story, you will read it one day elsewhere.

    Continue to harass on a topic for which we didn't need your help or Lel's original comment to be aware of it, apparently it seems this is what makes you vibe, reading your tone used throught your last 5 posts.

    BTW, the owner is passing you the message instead of splashing the job performed by iain Tyrrell, better you do your homework before speculating....
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  19. #19667 miurasv, Apr 11, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2021
    Congratulations! Wonderful!

    The power of Instagram, and >Youtube < is a great tool that unfortunately can also be used to perpetuate misinformation as the truth.
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  20. in the same way that somebody speculating uses a Forum to discredit somebody else when he has demonstrated that he knows nothing about bodywork field ...
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  21. #19669 miurasv, Apr 11, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
  22. #19670 miurasv, Apr 12, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
    Where is the proof that only P400S 4707's front end mask was changed to P400SV, and that it was actually done by the Factory, or is that actually just speculation? Whoever did the work clearly at the very least changed the whole of the aluminium bonnet skin to P400SV, if not the whole bonnet.

    If a restoration company broadcasts to the world to showcase how correct their work is, and how pleased they are with it, it's got to be up to standing scrutiny, and others should not then have sour grapes or be surprised when incorrect or incomplete work is pointed out.

    The new owner requested that the whole bonnet be returned to as new P400S specification, but what has he got to date? Just a P400S front end mask and the rest of the bonnet is still as P400SV.
  23. I have too seen original cars with trim more towards the satin (semi-gloss) side and original cars with trim more towards the glossy side of the scale, and I always wondered why that is. For what it's worth, my conclusion is that it has more to do with whether these parts have been waxed/polished by the owner throughout the years, which can make the finish shinier. That's why you never wax the satin black stripes on vintage muscle cars. It also, however, in my opinion, also has to do with the formulation of the paint that was used at the time it was applied and the conditions during painting. I have painted many satin items over the years, and I can tell you if it's cold or humid out, the finish will look very different than if it were applied on a hot day with no humidity...even with the exact same paint and parts. Any auto painters out there will understand that this is true. Also, at the time, I don't think the paint formulations were nearly as precise as they are today. One batch, a bit shinier. One batch, a bit more dull. Pretty simple. Those are my two cents at least.

    Oh, and as to the side intakes not being painted black on later cars, I think that was probably just to save time and money...it's time consuming to do and they probably were just cutting corners to save costs on these cars, which were expensive to produce. I think the early cars with the intakes painted black look much better, but that's just my opinion.
  24. #19673 Lel, Apr 12, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2021
    Oh, and as to the side intakes not being painted black on later cars, I think that was probably just to save time and money...it's time consuming to do and they probably were just cutting corners to save costs on these cars, which were expensive to produce. I think the early cars with the intakes painted black look much better, but that's just my opinion.[/QUOTE]

    I believe that you are wrong. It was the early cars, the P400:s, that were not black painted in b-post air intakes and the S and SV that were painted black. As a very good, in all aspects, example is Miura #3378.

  25. I believe that you are wrong. It was the early cars, the P400:s, that were not black painted in b-post air intakes and the S and SV that were painted black. As a very good, in all aspects, example is Miura #3378.

    You got me! And 3378 is my car LOL!! Well, that blows that theory! Perhaps they wanted to make the cars more time consuming and expensive to build so people stopped ordering them? I joke!! :D
    joe sackey likes this.
  26. Correct, satin. And depending upon their age and how they were detailed over time, can become more glossy.
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