Miura, the original supercar | Page 786 | LamborghiniChat

Miura, the original supercar

Discussion in 'Lamborghini Supercars' started by joe sackey, Dec 5, 2006.

  1. Miura bonnets

    According to our previous discussion about the front bonnet of #4707, if it is a “S”-, “SV”- or a “S”/”SV”-bonnet, let’s see how we've learnt our lesson.

    Which of these pics belong to a normal/S-bonnet and which illustrate a SV-bonnet?


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  3. A, C, P, N and D = SV.
  4. #19628 miurasv, Mar 25, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
    SV Front Wheels.

    Is it the case that although the front SV wheels are the same width as P400 and P400S at 7", the offset is different so they extend further outwards from the hub thus increasing the width of the track?

    Is the front track of the SV stated in the SV Owner's Manual? Of the on line sources I've seen the track is stated as the same for P400/S and P400SV.
  5. Yes.

    I'm not where I can check my notes but as I remember (it has been discussed here in the past) the offset on SV wheels out-board of the hub spline is increased meaning the track is marginally increased even though the wheels are still 7"s.
    miurasv likes this.
  6. Thank you, Joe.
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  8. Geometrically speaking, the original SV front wheels* are exactly the same as P400 / S wheels. (*: I'm not speaking of 7,5" repros, or about the styling differences)
    They are both 7" wide and have both the same offset of -3,1mm (-0,122 inches). No difference at all, no increased offset outboard on original SV front wheels.
    So, same front track, unchanged.
    Now adding in the comparison the 9" SV rear wheels and the 7,5" front repros, we can measure that their back side are also the same as on the previously mentionned wheels : all with a distance of 107mm (4,213 inches) from the outer surface of the inner flange of the wheel to the inner face at the center of the wheel (where the splined hub is applied - measured without the splined hub installed).
    We can also deduct that, with its 2 additional inches on its width, all outside, the offset of the 9" SV wheel is +22,3mm (+0,878 inches).
    Hope this helps.
    This is my understanding at the present time of the geometry of the Miura wheels. But I'm still interested and curious to learn if anyone has noticed any different values on stock OEM Miura wheels.
    miurasv and Olivier NAMECHE like this.
  9. Here's a useful resource: http://www.miuraworkshop.com/tavtire.html
    Olivier NAMECHE likes this.
  10. Yes, for sure, Craig's website is an incredible resource of information for the Miura owner or enthusiast.

    By the way, his tyre page clearly confirms that there is no difference in offset between a P400/S wheel and a SV front wheel.
    And the detailed content clearly explains that there is definitely no front track increase on a Miura SV compared to a P400 or a S, despite all what could be said or seen written on the web. That was the initial subject.

    I will still have a great respect for what Craig has done, and I'm proud to have modestly brought my contribution on some technical points for his website.

    Here, I just want to say that on the tavtire.html chapter that you share, be aware that the offset values indicated are not 100% accurate (incorrect offset values listed, that I imagine simply due to a little confusing between the negative offset of the 7" wheels & the positive offset of the 9" wheels) .
    DakotaGT and joe sackey like this.
  11. #19634 miurasv, Apr 3, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
    Fabulous picture by and copyright Fabio Grandi (@fabiograndi69), whose permission I have to post it here, of Piet's fantastic Jota at the Ferruccio Lamborghini Museum.

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  13. This is a great post!
    Thomas Berns likes this.
  14. There is an new Tyrrells video out again

    3 Miuras are shortly featured, along with other Lamborghinis. Videos like this one really gives the cars the attention they deserve
    Spyder-Man, Tu160bomber and cesare like this.
  15. #19638 miurasv, Apr 5, 2021 at 8:57 AM
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021 at 11:36 AM
    P400/S and SV bonnet framework differences.

    Lel has demonstrated visually to us very well in his excellent post here the differences between the P400/S and SV bonnets, in that the SV bonnet is wider over the top from edge to edge across its width and that the SV shape then drops down more vertically at a wider angle from the top edges to form the sides above the wheels with less pronounced lips than on the P400/S surrounding the wheel wells, although they are the same width lip to lip between the right and left wheel wells as also shown in Lel's post here.

    As the bonnet shapes are different from front to back, and NOT just at the nose, what about the (supporting like Superleggera?) framework underneath the aluminium skin? I've read in this thread that a P400/S bonnet will not fit on a P400SV frame. So, is the metal framework different underneath on P400/S to P400SV to reflect their differing shapes/outlines?
    Miura1960 and Thomas Berns like this.
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    Miura bonnet

    The steel framework was altered over the years. As examples the pins to stabilize the bonnet to the sills were further back to the doors on earlier cars. As the tires got wider, /70 profiles, the frame was formed to accept them. But anything could be done, so I don’t think there will be too much trouble to put a SV aluminum shell to a 400/S framework or the other way around. You may have to do some welding, riveting and corrections around grille and headlamps.

    The reason I made the little bonnet quiz for you was the discussion we had about the bonnet of the golden Miura #4707. I will say that I have not seen the car in person but judging from photos I don’t think it has a matching numbers bonnet-framework. And if it should have then we know that the complete aluminum SV-shell was replaced and fitted to the S-framework.

    Steven was the only one to either find any interest in the quiz or the only one with knowledge to give the right answer. But C, although a SV-bonnet, belonged to #4707, a Miura S.

    I’m really sorry, but I think Iain Tyrrells shop made a big mistake when they tried to transform the bonnet back to S-shape in the way they did. I don’t understand why they didn’t change the complete aluminum shell instead of cutting it into two pieces. By doing so, as you can see in the video, not just a 400/S shell but also the SV-shell was destroyed in shaping a non original S/SV shell. I hope I’m wrong and that I have missed something, but I doubt it.

    I saw a video from Curated about Miura SV #4952 which said “100 % all original”. Either do I have to redo my lesson or does 100 % original mean something approximately original. Cause I have never seen gloss black paint around the headlamps, I have never seen original S- and SV-s with body colored air intakes in the b-post and I have never seen the brackets of the “Bob”-exhaust tips riveted from outside. The fender mirrors looks like too modern plastic ones and I’m not sure that I have before seen pins in the door hinges painted. To me the car looks repainted.

    And as for the so very original S #4245 that was sold at RM:s auction in London. They first claimed that it had an original paint and later on, maybe the front had got some touch up. Just from photos in the catalog you could clearly see that the whole car was repainted: Missing satin black vertical surrounding at the headlamps, body colored air intakes at the b-post and yellow overspray on the rubber gasket at the deck lid. Hefty priced even though the interior seems to be reusable. And the Volkswagen direction lights at the front are easy to get rid off.

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    A photo of the shell I purchased some 25 years ago and found out the difference between S and SV bonnets.

    miurasv, simpen, Thomas Berns and 2 others like this.
  17. I found your quiz interesting. Steven beat me to the answers and I agreed with his responses so I gave it a thumbs up.

    Cheers Jim
    DakotaGT likes this.
  18. Happy Wednesday Mr. Lars-Erik Larson,

    Thank you for you comments. I would love to welcome you to Miami to see the Miura SV or potentially at Pebble Beach in 2022. (Dinner and drinks on me!) We are definitely passionate and excited about this incredible Miura SV and are open to comments and learning all of the time. We have confirmed that 98% of the Miura SV is original paint. There are a few areas of spot work, no longer than a few inches, that we have identified using some incredible measuring equipment.

    There are definitely some items that need to be corrected, including the tail pipes, distributor cover, air filter covers and more! That being said, we have spent a good amount of time inspecting the car with other experts and we can all agree its one of the most original Miura SV examples we have encountered. It is incredible that cars still exist preserved this well today.

    Look forward to meeting you and would love to share the car with you.
  19. #19642 miurasv, Apr 7, 2021 at 3:08 PM
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021 at 3:13 PM
    I've always wondered how it is proven definitively, that paint, although it may be visibly old and has a consistent depth, is actually the original paint?
  20. Typically in the industry, we compare readings with other "known" original paint cars from the same period. This is exactly what we did with the Miura SV. We were lucky to compare it 3-4 other readings of original example cars documented over the past 8 years.

    And in reality, any trained eye, that was around these cars new or in-period can tell in seconds.
  21. #19644 joe sackey, Apr 7, 2021 at 5:24 PM
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2021 at 5:46 PM
    Steven was not the only one to find any interest in the quiz or the only one with knowledge to give the right answer. Some of us are still busy working so we don't have much time to spare. Do you respond to every post or participate in every quiz?

    Regarding 4952, the car's paint is original, save for some minor touch-up areas, consistent with almost all preservation cars.

    Miura SVs are finished somewhat differently to P400 and P400S. I have a bit of experience with SVs having owned 5 of them and seen many others during the course of my conveyance of same the past few decades. I have carefully inspected a handful or original SVs, the very original 5018, 4904 and 4958 (prior to it's restoration) amongst them, besides 4952. Yes, I have in fact seen totally original Miura SVs with shinier-than-satin black paint around the headlamps, body colored air intakes in the b-post, and pins in the door hinges painted, all done that way courtesy of the folks at Sant Agata. Just because you haven't seen this doesn't mean those attributes do not exist from the factory. As regards the exhaust tips, these are often removed to clean the lower valance area of soot stains in the paint or because they have become mangled, so their placement on the outside as a matter of convenience does not mean anything. Ditto Vitaloni Sebring mirrors, those are from the factory, but even if they were added in period a couple years later (these have been on 4952 since it entered the USA in 1972), that does not affect a car's originality, bringing this up only exposes your desire to find fault with a car you are not familiar with.

    Meanwhile, although I am confident that you have not personally seen all SVs as they left the factory, in recent times, how many original SVs have you inspected in person and not just in pictures?

    Johnny, I will join you guys, all I need is 4 hours notice to file a flight plan plus travel time, I may fight you for the drinks bill though.

    I'll add that in my experience, besides corroborating the color, type and thickness of paint, any trained coach-builder can tell you if a Miura has been repainted, this is aided by the fact that the car's clamshell bodywork opens up to make this determination quite easy. Sometimes you'll need to discreetly scrape away some paint in a crevice, or lift up one of the old rubber window or door gaskets. There are some trade secrets, but the car will tell it's story if you know what to look for.
    Olivier NAMECHE likes this.
  22. Does any member here know the owner of chassis # 3096 (51) or #3099 (52) ? I keep running into dead ends, researching the early history of my #3102, and it would be immensely helpful to chat with people familiar with the early history of 3096 and 3099. I did have one major breakthrough, however! Emanuele Collo kindly brought to my attention the following article from July 1970 MOTOR magazine, and I was able to verify without a doubt that this car is my humble P400 #3102. It would be neat to know which sheik was the original owner of my car.

    Image Unavailable, Please Login Sheik by William Brunner, on Flickr
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  23. I know the owner of 3099 who still has the car here in the USA after 40-plus years, I featured it in my book in some great images.

    What do you want to know?
    DakotaGT likes this.

  24. Back in 2017, I saw #3096 in Italy in a workshop under restoration, car is completed since.

    I just spoke to the mechanic and he doesn't know the owner either as the car was drop by PS.

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  25. Tu160bomber, Spyder-Man and DakotaGT like this.

  26. As I mentioned previously in post #19547, where I attached a photo of the handwritten records from Enzo Moruzzi, where "Merrick- USA" is written in, seemingly indicating that either car 3096 (which was originally slated to head for Mitchell & Brittain) or 3099 (which was originally slated to head for Ferretti Bologna) might have instead headed directly to the USA. I am hoping to verify if either 3096 or 3099 went directly to the USA, rather than the places that the known records show they were, at one point in time, destined to go. That is, if 3099 did in fact go (as intended) to Ferretti Bolognia, then the Moruzzi note more likely referred to 3096 going to the USA instead of Mitchell & Brittain, and then by process of elimination that leave my verde P400 as the Setright article car, the Sandie Shaw car, and so forth.

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