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Huracán Huracán "not suitable for race track"

Discussion in 'V10 Lamborghinis' started by ferralc, Mar 7, 2018.

  1. 4th_gear

    4th_gear Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    12
    Full Name:
    Michael
    I'm back. I have to run over to Home Depot and RONA in a few minutes but here's my take on the Nürburgring and why it presents different challenges for road cars than a much shorter F1 track.

    First, a map of the Ring with kilometer markers. Notice the course is full of many types of turns, chicanes (esses), constant rate turns, some hairpins, combinations,...etc.


    Here's an elevation profile of the Nordschleife (North Loop) which is where everyone goes to check their time. Notice it drops 300 meters in 8 km and then goes back up to level at "Hohe Acht" (13 km) and then down 85 meters and sort of goes up and down until 19 km when it climbs back to the original level at "Ziel" (Finish).


    I have not considered the banking angles as that's beyond my capacity. But anyway, the gist of what I am saying is that the Ring is not a flat, straight course.

    Since we are talking about long straights running up to hard corners I have located 3 of the longest and straightest sections, which happen to involve elevation changes.

    Here's the section between 3.5 and 5.5 kms. It winds fast to the right at the beginning and includes an elevation drop at time approaching 11% so it's fast... BUT, about halfway along this stretch, at 4.5 km it changes from steep downhill to a steep uphill before you have to take a hard right at 5.5 km. The uphill serves as natural deceleration. So it's up to the driver. If he lets up the gas and apply a bit of braking, he retains good traction and control.


    Here's the next section between ~6 and 9 km. It's again a fast downhill with some minor chicanes before the course makes a sweeping left turn at round 7.8 km. HOWEVER, at 8 km the steep downhill grade changes to steep uphill which again acts as natural braking, till th enext corner after about 200 meters where it becomes undulating after a sharp right corner.


    The sections after 8 km are uphill so braking is assisted by gravity. You just have to go easy on the gas with moderate braking if needed at all. I think most drivers will stay off their brakes to maintain optimum tire traction and tire control.

    Finally, at the final turn before the finish, between 19.4 km and 21 km, even though it is straight, it is a fairly steep uphill to Ziel and the rest of the way I recall from videos is also uphill, before you have to make any more turns to go back to the start. The Nordschleife is 20.8 km long so I believe I have it correctly but please correct me if I am wrong. I believe there have been changes to the course over the years.


    So the Ring has "safety features" which help "tourists" and other novice drivers get through it with their jalopies. You don't need a track car. I think people crash on the Ring because they are pushing themselves and their cars beyond their capabilities, and because of weather, debris, equipment failure or "other drivers".
     
  2. Gh21631

    Gh21631 Rookie

    Feb 24, 2011
    42
    East
    You have to let the brakes cool when tracking a street car. If you are going to track hard you need to be setup properly or risk crashing. It's that simple. I have run Huracans hard on a track and had no issues but we let them cool after a few laps. We did reach speeds of 160mph+. Also don't think for a minute Ferrari wouldn't do the same as Lamborghini.
     
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  3. 4th_gear

    4th_gear Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    12
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Looks like you've done this a fair bit. ;)

    FWIW, I found this off Wikipedia on the topic of "Formula One car"...

    "... average F1 car can decelerate from 100 to 0 km/h... in about 15 meters (48 ft)..."​

    By comparison, Autoblog says the Huracan 610-4 decelerates from 100-0 km/h in 31.9 meters, excellent by road car standards but still more than twice the distance.

    "...When braking from higher speeds, aerodynamic downforce enables tremendous deceleration: 4.5 g to 5.0 g (44 to 49 m/s2), and up to 5.5 g (54 m/s2) at the high-speed circuits such as the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve (Canadian GP) and the Autodromo Nazionale Monza (Italian GP)."

    "This contrasts with 1.0 g to 1.5 g (10 to 15 m/s2) for the best sports cars (the Bugatti Veyron is claimed to be able to brake at 1.3 g). An F1 car can brake from 200 km/h (124 mph) to a complete stop in just 2.9 seconds, using only 65 metres (213 ft)."​
     
  4. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer Formula 3
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    1,140
    Michael,

    I would never say that a roaf car, no matter from which manufacturer, can cope with a track- or 100% race car (and I did not mention at all a F1 car!)! With a standard GT-car you are diving a totally different line than any race car...and you need to brake much earlier and from a different position.
    So any driver of a normal GT-car need to know that he has be much more careful incl. correct braking.
    I never said that a normal human novice driver can be good on a circuit with his standard Lamborghini, Ferrari, Porsche, McLaren etc.
    But driving over 300km/h -for example- on a long straight section on the Autobahn in Germany is possible (I did it many years ago in a McLaren F1 very early on Sunday morning and without any traffic!). So a road IS IN FACT a road - nothing more but nothing less! But driving fast on a long straight is ...easy! The corners are making the difference(s) with cars and their drivers!

    The only thing I forgot in my previous post is the thin air in Mexico. That could clearly limit the performance of such cars.
     
  5. ken qv

    ken qv Formula 3

    Oct 25, 2006
    1,160
    Florida
    Full Name:
    Ken Roberson
    My question is this.. how many laps did they do? I would think you should be able to do a handful of laps even in a high performance road car... then let equipment cool down and go again. Did they do a dozen laps? At what point is the driver becoming reckless by adding laps and responsibility transfers from Lambo to the driver?
     
  6. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer Formula 3
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    1,140
    MIchael,

    the long straight is slightly downhill and only a little uphill at the far end. Fastest section on the `Ring...for every car!
     
  7. 4th_gear

    4th_gear Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    12
    Full Name:
    Michael
    To be honest, I think we're talking about different things.

    I believe you are simply saying it's possible to safely drive a road car fast on a race track or on unregulated Autobahn sections, under safe conditions. I agree, and have been there, done that myself.

    OTOH, what I am saying is that cars capable of near-F1 or greater than F1 car speeds (e.g. Veyron) can easily get novice drivers in trouble on some track courses with very long straights because the straights allow them to reach maximum speeds and then they have to negotiate a very demanding corner. Road cars while they can go 300+ kph straight, cannot approach track cars in handling or braking so these cars and their drivers' lack of experience (never mind skills) will easily land in trouble.

    For novice drivers, you want instructors to take them on track courses with lots of corners and shorter straights, before you let them tackle faster tracks. The tracks with long straights are naturally the fastest. We have such a training circuit at the local former F1 facility where driver training courses are conducted.
     
  8. 4th_gear

    4th_gear Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    12
    Full Name:
    Michael
    #33 4th_gear, Mar 12, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    You forgot to mention, "...but the finish line is actually just halfway along the uphill straight, not at the end". I think the track designers did this for safety reasons, so drivers have a long straight UPHILL runoff to slow down safely after they finish and that's what the drivers generally do.

    BTW, it's not "...only a little uphill at the far end"... to the finish line. If the elevation map is reasonably accurate, it's actually approx. 7% grade for the last 670 meters to the finish line. Here's a closer look at the course and elevation maps I reproduced off the Internet.

    Anyone can floor a gas pedal on a straight road - this section actually provides a good test for the HP and aerodynamic design efficiency of the cars. The car has to overcome both gravity and wind resistance (assuming no tail wind).

     
  9. 4th_gear

    4th_gear Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    12
    Full Name:
    Michael
    I agree. By the looks of things, if 2 cars crashed on the same day, something was very wrong with the organizing. They should have stopped after the 1st crash, figured out what was wrong and correct it or go home. The 2nd crash should not have happened, unless it was right after the 1st, caused by the 1st crash.

    With the help of Google maps I recreated what may have been the trajectories of the red and the silver Huracans. My measurements are accurate based on the scale of the map indicated lower right.

    The Huracan 610-4 is AWD and has a slight tendency to understeer, which is fine with normal driving but at high speed may have contributed. However, as you see from the locations where I believe they impacted the safety barriers, the drivers did not seem to have taken the correct lines, were probably going too fast as they traversed the braking zone.

    Again, I'm just trying to contribute to the thread and provide a forum to discuss. I am guessing based on the orientation of the cars at the crash sites and where the crash sites appear to be. The impacts were also quite heavy, look to my non-expert eyes to be at least 50 kph impacts. These theoretical trajectories assume no abrupt changes in course correction, which judging from the nature of the incident, could very likely have happened.

    What is likely to be correct are the orientation and location of the cars when they passed the apex of the corner.

     
  10. jgcferrari

    jgcferrari Karting
    Giallo Subscribed

    Nov 21, 2004
    57
    USA
    Full Name:
    Jose
    The track is very hard on road cars and at more than 7k feet elevation, people forget the difference between a road car and a race car, and believe that their road cars can be driven like a race car at a track, they go out full throttle braking hard not letting the cars warm up or cool down, I have seen this many many times.
    Even 991 Turbos tend to suffer which by the way can reach 300 kmh at the end of the straight easily

    One important thing I learned from someone familiar with the case is that the green car had its brake calipers repainted by a non authorized dealer
     
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  11. exoticcardreamer

    Dec 9, 2014
    6
    usa
    Full Name:
    doesitmatter
    The red huracan crash was on a circuit in South Africa. Like I said earlier; more to the story then what all of you are speculating.
     
  12. 4th_gear

    4th_gear Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    12
    Full Name:
    Michael
    #37 4th_gear, Mar 12, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
    Sorry, I meant the green car. I used GREEN for the trajectory and circle. Too many cars were mentioned in the original post. Again, it's the GREEN and SILVER cars I suggested trajectories for. I used the "stairs" between the sections of stands to determine the crash location of the green car (see below).

    As for there being more to the story, maybe you can share what you know if you think people are "speculating".

    I also don't think it changes the trajectories and people can still discuss the general issue of "track day crashes".

     
  13. exoticcardreamer

    Dec 9, 2014
    6
    usa
    Full Name:
    doesitmatter
    I am quite active on instagram and specifically my stories. I shared the information at the beginning of this thread and had many responses. Two of them was concerning the red huracan and that it was in South Africa and not the same event.

    A very reputable auto journalist in Mexico shared with me the following information:

    not at the same track day! I know the story...long story short, owner of the green one crashed on a private, non official event. Also he wanted lambo to pay but he isn't telling he voided his warranty by dismounting the brake callpers to pain them. Also, as I said, not an official lambo event. He intended to sue Lambox Mx because he wanted someone to be responsible for his mistakes...what he isn't saying either is that he abused the brakes by doing hard braking at the end of the looooong straight at the mexico city racetrack. There was no such thing as fast laps and cool down laps. He was going too fast lap after lap. Also he drives quite badly. There are videos of people overtaking him in much slower cars, just because his racing line is nonexistent. Whatever. He's mad and wants a new lambo for free.

    I was there when the gray one crashed at the luxury track day, the official lambo event. He overheated his brakes too, but was man enough to admit it. Car was auctioned and he has a new one now.

    Last but not least, look up that racetrack on youtube. Even f1 drivers were going off the track at the end of the straight, because it's long and earlier bends are very demanding for your brakes and tires.

    I just find it a bit unfair for lambo as a brand to be pointed at as the bad guy when there are unresponsible drivers involved. Driving like you own a super trofeo doesn't mean the car actually acts line one. ..there's also some videos of a guy who takes his 50th anniversary aventador to that racetrack all the time, but he actually knows what he's doing. You can see red glowing brake discs at the end of the straight and he's always going hard but no crash!

    Owner of the green lambo has been trying to satanize the brand and dealer (there's only one lambo dealer for the whole country) for some months now...it's a well known story down here"
     
  14. 4th_gear

    4th_gear Rookie

    Jan 18, 2013
    12
    Full Name:
    Michael
    Well, that certainly changes the story. :rolleyes:

    Thank you very much exoticcardreamer, for sharing your information with us. It's a lesson to us to dig deeper into controversial claims before assuming the accuracy of a posted message. I would admit, somewhat sheepishly, that I haven't done that myself but at least I just stuck to looking at the accident scenes and didn't start by believing the blame the OP seemed to have assumed.

    IMO, if the green car owner is known to be a poor driver, careless or unwilling to recognize his own limitations, event organizers should refuse him admission to such events. Lamborghini would also appear to be more than understanding in offering this person a discount even after this debacle. If I were them I would worry if the fellow would continue to use them as a scapegoat if he has another accident with a replacement car. I try to be objective and have never been a Lambo owner although I did consider buying a very nicely appointed Huracan a couple of years ago.
     
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  15. ferralc

    ferralc Rookie

    Sep 2, 2010
    9
    San Diego CA
    Full Name:
    Fernando
    BUT Lambo response about the car not suited for a race track but a normal urban track (whatever that means) is not a good response
    Instead they could have pointed drivers fault or the brake caliper modification


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  16. exoticcardreamer

    Dec 9, 2014
    6
    usa
    Full Name:
    doesitmatter
    Maybe. All these track tests that journalists, manufactures do/show should have the warning "do not try this at home because your warranty will be void".

    Maybe, you'd be surprised if you checked the warranty books for mclaren/ferrari/porsche/dodge/chevrolet, etc. and see what they actually say what happens to warranty if you track the car or use it for performance driving.
     
  17. ferralc

    ferralc Rookie

    Sep 2, 2010
    9
    San Diego CA
    Full Name:
    Fernando
    Not talking about warranty but safety the car is built to the highest standards and a hypercar brand should not say it is only suited for “normal urban track” aka Public roads just because it is not the race track version of the model.

    It might not be a F1 car but it is an Huracan!! It will perform way better than many budget race cars.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  18. exoticcardreamer

    Dec 9, 2014
    6
    usa
    Full Name:
    doesitmatter
    Your original posting has disinformaiton in it. One of those cars was in South Africa. The other two cars were on different days/events. One was at a sanctioned lambo day and the other one wasn't.

    A person I know had his 458 go up in flames and burned to the ground last summer at Virginia International Raceway. Brake failure at 155 mph and he ended up in the grass and the grass caught fire and nothing left of the car.

    Search enough and you'll see a 488 with brake failure at a track day in Europe on a long straight and it went right into a wall.

    I track a lot and primarily mclaren because there warranty isn't voided if you track the car as long as you do pre/post track inspections and I'm not out there beating it to the ground. Depending on weather, etc. it's usually max 8 laps per session and usually only 3 sessions per day in a non f-1 track.

    Ferrari, regardless of car will void your warranty if something goes wrong and they tie it to you tracking. (like I said; check the warranty book).

    The manufactures stand by their product and they will use this trump card if they think the person did something wrong. They don't need to say anything other then you didn't use the car per the warranty book.

    If something does go wrong with tracking like in this case then person probably wasn't using the car correctly. You can't just go lap after lap after lap and keep going without having over heating issues and/or brake failure. One has to know what they are doing.
     
  19. exoticcardreamer

    Dec 9, 2014
    6
    usa
    Full Name:
    doesitmatter
    btw; I don't own a lambo currently and probably won't in the future (too tall to sit in the car with a helmet). Had a couple in the past but not anymore.
     
  20. ferralc

    ferralc Rookie

    Sep 2, 2010
    9
    San Diego CA
    Full Name:
    Fernando
    I never said I was sure about the incident, if you read my very first post I wrote "Supposedly Three Huracanes crashed " and then on my second post I wrote "I am not sure if the other three cars crashed on the same event, but the way Lamborghini handled it is bad"
    So my only concern was the letter actually, not the gossip or disinformation campaign from the driver, I get invited often to track events organized by Ferrari and yes they inspect the car for free before the event, and yes you have to buy track insurance because the regular insurance will not cover your car (and Ferrari will not cover your car either not even that they organized the event
    My only thing is how they say "designed and manufactured for sport driving BUT in a normal urban track", what in the world is that.
     
  21. Cayenne Turbo

    Cayenne Turbo Rookie

    Nov 15, 2007
    5
    The Car was a LP580-2 with steel brakes.
    I was involved at the accident, we crash at exactly 220Km/h straight to the wall.
    The car only had 3 moths, so it was new, also the crash lap been the 3rd, the brakes weren’t that worn.
    There was no brake blockage, no skidding or anything, the car was direct.
    We did not have any call from Lamborghini to see our state of health since they were more occupied in the reputation of their brand, at least that is how the Distributor handled it here in Mexico.
     
  22. wbaeumer

    wbaeumer Formula 3
    Consultant

    Mar 4, 2005
    1,140
    And you don`t think that the driver ...perhaps...made a mistake?
     
  23. robfants

    robfants Rookie

    Nov 11, 2017
    3
    Full Name:
    Rob Fants
    I've learned so much from this thread. I can't wait to read more replies. I don't think I'll take my 458 onto a track after reading all this. Damn. I just want to drive it fast, in control, with a qualified instructor. Guess that little dream is over!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  24. staatsof

    staatsof Formula 3
    Silver Subscribed

    Mar 13, 2005
    1,965
    Hiddin' in da garden
    Full Name:
    Boo

    Well you can't drive them fast on public roads and for years people were told to take them to track events but a few things about that. I used to frequent track events but not in anything remotely as fast as this but it wasn't a slouch either. I haven't done that in over 6 years now. Near the end of my days doing this the new cars got so incredibly much faster and more powerful but the already suspect talent and experience of the funtime track drivers did not get commensurately better to match what these cars can do now. I saw plenty of wrecks. One of them took out my car too.

    Over the years I used to see a lot of newbie Ferrari Challenge drivers wreck their cars even after being admonished about early morning temperatures and warming up their brakes etc. I saw one of them pull out of the pits and lose control of the car halfway down the straightaway as first person out that morning. Mostly I think this is about a lack of driving experience, wisdom and too much testosterone but the increased capabilities of the cars have made it ever so much more dangerous. Great as they may be they don't suspend the laws of physics nor impart automatic race driver experience and skills to the driver. There's just no substitute for quality seat time and at least a reasonable amount of talent.

    I have no idea what these high performance exotic car companies are going to do because they're producing very expensive products which cannot be used on the public roads anywhere near the limit and are too dangerous for most of their typical customers on a track which voids the warranty anyway.

    What's the point?

    Get a much lower powered Mazda or something and have fun with that instead if you want to experience driving on a track. An awful lot of Ferrari track day guys did that after dealing with all of the expensive repairs.
     
    robfants likes this.
  25. Cayenne Turbo

    Cayenne Turbo Rookie

    Nov 15, 2007
    5
    It is very difficult to make a mistake on a braking point, and as I said before, the brake pedal went all the way without any stopping
     

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